My MMO experience was primarily based in FFXI, not EQ and one of the key things that I loved were the impact of the Missions or Main Quests because of how far apart and hard earned they were. The cap content made every few levels feel valulable long term. This question may have been answered already, but does Pantheon intend to have a constant progression of plot points and dozens of "Fetch me some buzzard butts" or will there be a hard focus on developing your craft and missions being long, drawn out experiences that serve as huge milestones for your progress? Looking forward to that next epic cinematic rather than being plagued with one everytime I finish a menial task?
As an example, FFXI would station fetch quests and just make them repeatable.. there was the Tanner in San'D Oria who was ALWAYS looking for Rabbit Hides. If you were out killing rabbits for Exp, he'd take the hides off your hands for a little fame and money.. a slight trade off if the price was better on the player market. That seemless flow to me made an enormous difference in immersion because I didn't have to accept a quest, and then keep track, and get diary updates on how many hides I have. I just knew who to go to if I happened to have a few stacks of hides after a day of adventure and that went for a few other key drop items in the regions as well with various NPC's looking for things. It's subtle, but it mattered. Like a real player, you just traded them and the reward kicked in and he thanked you.
Thoughts from the Devs potentially on this kind of immersion? Do you other players or old FFXI heads like this approach as well?
I completely agree Snozzberry. EQ is fantastic and I have great faith in the teams quest management priorities with that game in mind. I feel in the case of meaningful memory and meaningful game experience.. Less, in this case is so much more. I don't think anyone could forget the Magecite quest in FFXI. It took you across the realm.. if you focused on it without stopping, and had a good group the whole endeavor took hours to complete and summarily your world view as a character and player was immediately expanded beyond any previous boundary you thought existed.
I'm sure there's going to be some low level quest npcs that ask for 4 scorpion stingers and pay you a couple silver and a tad of exp, that are repeatable so you can get a little pocket change. We might have to find them of the beaten path, ask what they are looking for, and just keep turning 4 in at a time. Eventually you'll outgrow the area and reward, but I don't forsee them being high level quests. Those might require 8 Giant's toes, and not be something you can repeat 100 times.
Yes SilkyWhip, that is the kind of experience that I think will ring true. I like off the beaten path.. some dude in a hut that you really have no need to find, but if you did because you like to explore you've found something to do for a little bonus. That is precisely what should happen.. you outgrow the reward. Now intead of turning those items in, perhaps you craft them into something, but everything is loosely connected in some way so that the value of your adventuring is never quite lost.
In EQ there were the fetch me 20 rat ears type quests, which I believe are not going to be so prevalent in Pantheon.
There were also quests where you collected a few items from various zones, sometimes from well-contested spawns then turned them in for a decent reward (Testament of Vaneer or Paw of Opolla as prime examples). I suspect this model will be quite common in Pantheon.
There were also the "epic" quests. I'm using quotations as there were the actual epic quests, but there were also epic scale quests such as zone keys which may require weeks or even months of searching and camping to complete. I'm hoping Pantheon presents us with lots of these challenges.
Whether some of these extended quests have temporary or partial rewards as you follow the quest line is something I hope they vary based on whether it makes sense in the storyline of the quest. If you only have half a sword, it doesn't make sense to wield it in combat. If you're getting upgrades along the quest, then the mid-quest items make sense to equip.
For me, the most important element is whether a quest feels organic and pulls you into the immersive world of Terminus.
SilkyWhip said:I'm sure there's going to be some low level quest npcs that ask for 4 scorpion stingers and pay you a couple silver and a tad of exp, that are repeatable so you can get a little pocket change. We might have to find them of the beaten path, ask what they are looking for, and just keep turning 4 in at a time. Eventually you'll outgrow the area and reward, but I don't forsee them being high level quests. Those might require 8 Giant's toes, and not be something you can repeat 100 times.
I don't know if you watched Vress' "after stream", but he did one such quest.
One of the Thronefast guards asked him to go fiind his bag "by the steps". Well, they were nowhere near any steps, but he found the bag near a rock outcropping that vaguely resembled a stepped outcropping. It gave me the impression that it was more of a quest to get you to explore the area, like a level 1 or 2 quest, than anything "super enriching".
Well said, Calandor. These older games typically relied on the player chat area to have the quests read or interacted with. I believe a lot of immersion was making you feel like you were speaking with another player instead of bringing up a large box in the main view screen with an accept sign. And as I stated, the ability to just walk up to an NPC, click trade, and earn a reward is very seemless. Too Snozzberry's point, you can havea meaningful experience with very missions as long as they feel well earned and cover a lot of ground. There were only 10 Nation missions in FFXI, the missions that advanced you through the story and they carried you through the original 50 level cap. You didn't have a journal full of 200 pointless tasks between missions. If you wanted to do mild side quests you simply spoke to NPC's in the area and they would either have something or not. No exclamation points, which I think they've already confirmed will not have a place in Terminus.
Kalok said:SilkyWhip said:I'm sure there's going to be some low level quest npcs that ask for 4 scorpion stingers and pay you a couple silver and a tad of exp, that are repeatable so you can get a little pocket change. We might have to find them of the beaten path, ask what they are looking for, and just keep turning 4 in at a time. Eventually you'll outgrow the area and reward, but I don't forsee them being high level quests. Those might require 8 Giant's toes, and not be something you can repeat 100 times.
I don't know if you watched Vress' "after stream", but he did one such quest.
One of the Thronefast guards asked him to go fiind his bag "by the steps". Well, they were nowhere near any steps, but he found the bag near a rock outcropping that vaguely resembled a stepped outcropping. It gave me the impression that it was more of a quest to get you to explore the area, like a level 1 or 2 quest, than anything "super enriching".
That's encouraging! I missed that bit of the stream, I need to go back and look. From the sound of it they didn't have a little arrow showing him where to go and the vagueness ecouraged exploration which in a natural setting would undoubtedly find you discovering more things. Not every quest has to be fullfilling obviously, but it should add to the immersion and taking in of the world.
Justin5574 said:Kalok said:SilkyWhip said:I'm sure there's going to be some low level quest npcs that ask for 4 scorpion stingers and pay you a couple silver and a tad of exp, that are repeatable so you can get a little pocket change. We might have to find them of the beaten path, ask what they are looking for, and just keep turning 4 in at a time. Eventually you'll outgrow the area and reward, but I don't forsee them being high level quests. Those might require 8 Giant's toes, and not be something you can repeat 100 times.
I don't know if you watched Vress' "after stream", but he did one such quest.
One of the Thronefast guards asked him to go fiind his bag "by the steps". Well, they were nowhere near any steps, but he found the bag near a rock outcropping that vaguely resembled a stepped outcropping. It gave me the impression that it was more of a quest to get you to explore the area, like a level 1 or 2 quest, than anything "super enriching".
That's encouraging! I missed that bit of the stream, I need to go back and look. From the sound of it they didn't have a little arrow showing him where to go and the vagueness ecouraged exploration which in a natural setting would undoubtedly find you discovering more things. Not every quest has to be fullfilling obviously, but it should add to the immersion and taking in of the world.
Nope. No pathing or errors shown. He had to go look for it. There wasn't a ! on the guard saying that there was a quest there either.
Yeah you definitely should watch the example of a quest that Vress did. I did a summary of it and linked to the vid in my recap here: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/9071/bazgrim-s-06-aug-18-mmo-all-star-stream-recap
I will say though that overall they have stated several times that their philosophy is a "quality over quantity" approach to quests. Quests won't be the primary way of getting XP and there will be very few "kill X mobs" or "collect X items" type quests. There won't be any "quest hubs." Quests will be engaging and fit into the world.
From the FAQ:
If you want to find out if an NPC has a quest all you have to do is… talk to him. We will NOT be utilizing the ‘over the head icon’ approach, and there will be no punctuation or other symbols above NPCs’ heads. You will either have to begin a conversation with an NPC or an NPC may begin one with you. Likewise, the environment itself will give clues and help you start or pick up a quest.
We want you investigate your surroundings and gather information and interacting with NPCs is a big part of that. So don’t be shy, speak with the inhabitants of Terminus and engage the world!
17.3 Will there be many quests?
Story and lore elements are essential to our Quest system – they need to be meaningful and give purpose. But as a player you should never feel overwhelmed with a bunch of quests that are nothing but mundane tasks. When you get a quest the intent is that it will be epic in nature and reinforce the fact that you are a resurrected hero. More specifically, Pantheon is not a ‘quest hub’ game, where you move to one level appropriate hub, do a bunch of quests in that area, and then move to the next hub; rather, you will need to search out and find quests by interacting with PCs and in a less linear and more ‘sandbox’ style setting.
17.4 Will there be ‘epic’ quests?
Absolutely. Some of the most memorable gaming experiences stem from the adventure involved in obtaining and earning ‘epic’ weapons and items. These quests should be class defining moments and fill you with a major sense of accomplishment when completed. Whether hunting for clues to start a quest or trying to figure out the right thing to say or do in order to get to the next step, epic quests will be a significant social component of the game.
There will also be quests for epic, class defining abilities.
Thanks Bazgrim. I know I remember hearing and reading these things before. With so much information to take in and detail to pay attention to it's easy to forget. My greatest fear is that it's not entirely possible to recapture an experience or feeling that you had when you're that young simply because age and experience changes you. But so far all of this is immensely promising and exciting.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/7101/what-makes-a-good-quest/view/post_id/171076
In the above link I tried to break down quest into Errant Knight Quests, Citizen Tasks, and Commerce Contracts. We tend to bunch them up together under one term but they really each server a different purpose and if handled correctly could all still be a benefit to Pantheon.
TLDR on the other post
Errant Knight quests:
Longer, lore driven quests that are not repeatable and reward experience and powerful items. Eq Epic quests are a good example of max level Errant Knight Quests.
Citizen Tasks:
Citizen tasks are the horrible, grindy, quests we all love to hate. Rather than have them be a method of leveling have them be the only reward faction for the specific groups you are helping/hurting and remove faction gains from killing mobs (though faction hits can still be applied). This will make having a faction mater but also if you dont have a reason to have high faction then never do a single one of these quests.
Commerce Contracts:
Bring me X in exchange for Y. Thats all, no faction, no experience. Just a trade with an NPC for world items. There is a whole Trade Union system that can also tie into crafting class contracts but that's a much bigger discussion.
So don't count out the simple quests entirely just put them in the right place.
Yes, Trasak, the right quest for the right reason is something that's more immersive and realistic. In fact, because of the 0 hand holding you're afforded in these quests there could be those who find very efficient ways to complete Commerce style or Citizen Tasks as a meaningful way for them to enjoy their game experience that doesn't interfere with vertical progression. (By that I mean, completeing a million mundane tasks to reach a high levle of power instead of being held accountable for learning game systems.)
Kittik said:There had damn well better be a "Go kill 20 rats for me" type of quest in this game. It's an MMO staple for goodness sake!
Haha, it kind of is. I love a good massacre quest myself...we probaly just don't need one for every mob and it certainly shouldn't account for half of your level 1 to 2 experience points! Frankly, I'd love it if you gained NO exp from quests. I don't know if the Devs have a concrete opinion on that one or not.
Trasak said:Errant Knight quests, Citizen Tasks, Commerce Contracts:
I like the delineation, Trasak.
To add:
For some reason, the collection/bounty type quests in Everquest always seemed less pedantic to me than the static "kill 20 x" quests in subsequent MMOs. Probably because those where one-off deals. Once a player finished that quest, there was no reason to continue collecting - and often the quest items no longer drop.
In EQ, in the case of Blackburrow gnoll teeth and Crushbone belts (EDIT: and wisp lighstones!), for instance, one didn't have to be on that quest for gathering or turning them in. The teeth/belts (lightstones) would drop regardless. You could turn them in or not.
One suggestion I can think of is to have a rolling (random?) or changing set of bounties for different things. In game terms, this might mean several things, like: goblins are a problem right now, so the local authority is paying a premium on goblin ears. Next week, it might be gnoll teeth, then orc toenails. Whatever it is, don't think of stockpiling them! If you don't turn them in this week, they end up becoming generic, worthless "monster parts" as the bounty resets to require something different.
Such changing circumstances, even if repeated every few weeks, would be a step forward from the static design that was necessary yesteryear.
Kittik said:There had damn well better be a "Go kill 20 rats for me" type of quest in this game. It's an MMO staple for goodness sake!
So for me, I don't mind quest like that if it's handed out by an NPC. What I don't like is "mission boards" where you just pick up random quest like that mean nothing. At least if it's from an NPC there can be a little bit of store behind it. Say the town peon is serving as a rat catcher. If he says he hurt his leg because he took an arrow to the knee, maybe he needs help killing rats.
One suggestion I can think of is to have a rolling (random?) or changing set of bounties for different things.
I love this idea. This holds the exact merit of "fetch quest" that I mentioned in FFXI but allows it expand for an evolving world. A great sense of realism and almost urgency. Could keep all players on their toes because it could change camping options and farming habits from week to week as well. That could be good or bad, but always interesting!
I've said it a millions times and I won't stop repeating: less is more. Playing the game itself should be the quest. Travel from one place to another, learn about the mobs and the drops and the locations, those things are all more rewarding than any kill 10 rats quest. If a player has to be told where to go and when to leave, then a team has not created a virtual world, they have created a single player game that people co-op with others. If a sense of wonder and achievement is enough to reward players for exploring content on their own, then a game is on to something special.
Keno Monster said:I've said it a millions times and I won't stop repeating: less is more. Playing the game itself should be the quest. Travel from one place to another, learn about the mobs and the drops and the locations, those things are all more rewarding than any kill 10 rats quest. If a player has to be told where to go and when to leave, then a team has not created a virtual world, they have created a single player game that people co-op with others. If a sense of wonder and achievement is enough to reward players for exploring content on their own, then a game is on to something special.
/micdrop
Agree 100%. Somewhere along the way, leveling in an MMO became about going from town to town and being an errand-boy. And that's sad.
zoltar said:Keno Monster said:I've said it a millions times and I won't stop repeating: less is more. Playing the game itself should be the quest. Travel from one place to another, learn about the mobs and the drops and the locations, those things are all more rewarding than any kill 10 rats quest. If a player has to be told where to go and when to leave, then a team has not created a virtual world, they have created a single player game that people co-op with others. If a sense of wonder and achievement is enough to reward players for exploring content on their own, then a game is on to something special.
/micdrop
Agree 100%. Somewhere along the way, leveling in an MMO became about going from town to town and being an errand-boy. And that's sad.
Quests don't have to be "errand boy" runs.
Keno Monster said:I've said it a millions times and I won't stop repeating: less is more. Playing the game itself should be the quest. Travel from one place to another, learn about the mobs and the drops and the locations, those things are all more rewarding than any kill 10 rats quest. If a player has to be told where to go and when to leave, then a team has not created a virtual world, they have created a single player game that people co-op with others. If a sense of wonder and achievement is enough to reward players for exploring content on their own, then a game is on to something special.
You're not completely wrong here, but to say that NPC's wouldn't need your assistance is also not realistic, or immersive. The NPC's should and will have their own interests and needs that you can fill. My example was the Tanner in San'D Oria who is always looking for Rabbit Hides. He doesn't need you specifically to get them... but you can if you want to, and he'll give you a few coins. That to me speaks to immersion as much as learning about the world. Making everything seemless, in context.
Justin5574 said:Keno Monster said:I've said it a millions times and I won't stop repeating: less is more. Playing the game itself should be the quest. Travel from one place to another, learn about the mobs and the drops and the locations, those things are all more rewarding than any kill 10 rats quest. If a player has to be told where to go and when to leave, then a team has not created a virtual world, they have created a single player game that people co-op with others. If a sense of wonder and achievement is enough to reward players for exploring content on their own, then a game is on to something special.
You're not completely wrong here, but to say that NPC's wouldn't need your assistance is also not realistic, or immersive. The NPC's should and will have their own interests and needs that you can fill. My example was the Tanner in San'D Oria who is always looking for Rabbit Hides. He doesn't need you specifically to get them... but you can if you want to, and he'll give you a few coins. That to me speaks to immersion as much as learning about the world. Making everything seemless, in context.
bone chips anyone ?
zoltar said:Keno Monster said:I've said it a millions times and I won't stop repeating: less is more. Playing the game itself should be the quest. Travel from one place to another, learn about the mobs and the drops and the locations, those things are all more rewarding than any kill 10 rats quest. If a player has to be told where to go and when to leave, then a team has not created a virtual world, they have created a single player game that people co-op with others. If a sense of wonder and achievement is enough to reward players for exploring content on their own, then a game is on to something special.
/micdrop
Agree 100%. Somewhere along the way, leveling in an MMO became about going from town to town and being an errand-boy. And that's sad.
Due to the limitations of current technology prewritten quests are the only way for players to interact with the world in ways other than killing things. Additionally there is a need to introduce new players to both the game and the genre to the controls and important details of the game. These quests are usually fairly pedantic and annoying as they hand hold you through button clicks but as long as there is an opt out button at character creation they are actually important to new player integration.
I do not think you will get anyone saying that they want blinking lights, guiding arrows and the like anywhere outside of the new player tutorial. It’s a little immersion breaking but I could see real value in one way tutorial zones for the first 5-10 levels as you get your core class abilities then transfer to the real world. Then your actual starter zones start at level 10 and group dynamics actually function. These newbie tutorial zones can be partially instanced to limit the number of players in each tutorial zone so that the learning process is smooth.
I look forward to the day that I can strike up a conversation with an NPC AI that I can fish information out of with clever talking but until that level of tech is available we are left with pre-written quests for anything other than being a Murder Hobo (Technical jargon, not reflecting on the actual disposition of nomadic ascetics)